Justice does not always mean convictions
The acquittal at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) last week of two Croatian generals responsible for Operation Storm in 1995 has occasioned a lot of annoyance among Serbs. Belgrade has downgraded cooperation with the Tribunal. I got some pretty ugly tweets, because somehow I am responsible for what ICTY decides. Anti-Semitic tirades accused me of being a Nazi.
So I decided to read the judgement, which I imagine few of my expletive-wielding antagonists had done. I am not a lawyer, but the appeals panel that made the split decision to reverse a lower chamber’s conviction did not, in my layman’s view, exonerate the generals. What it did was to find the trial chamber’s decisions faulty and indict the prosecution’s case as weak and ill-founded. This distinction is important. Courts do not exonerate. They find guilty, or not guilty. Not guilty does not mean innocent. It means everything from innocent to insufficient evidence to poorly argued to logically inconsistent to incorrectly processed. This gives the accused the benefit of doubt, which some of them are able to exploit to get off the hook (in this case only after Gotovina had spent seven years in prison). That is inherent in a modern court system, which seeks to avoid false convictions.
The main rational objection to the Tribunal in Serbia is that it is biased against Serbs. I find this assertion hard to credit. Certainly ICTY has indicted more Serbs (94 of 161) than Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians, who were the main ethnic groups involved in the Balkans wars of the 1990s. There are many possible reasons for that: Serbs were certainly involved in more wars (they fought against each of the other three ethnic groups), they may have engaged in more criminal activities, and even if they did not there may be more evidence available against them, including more witnesses willing to testify. Belgrade did not help by refusing to cooperate with ICTY for years. The number of indictments and convictions is not a reliable indicator of bias.
It is really very difficult, given the varied make-up of the Tribunal’s judges and staff, to imagine how any systematic bias could be at work. And this particular decision was a close call: 3 to 2. It is far more likely that the Tribunal’s critics simply don’t accept that certain acts are criminal according to the laws of war. Whenever someone objects to a conviction on grounds that the acts involved were provoked by another ethnic group, or were not as bad as what another ethnic group did, the critic simply does not understand what application of law to war means. The Tribunal judges individuals (and their joint action), not ethnic groups.
Personally, I don’t have much doubt that the way in which the generals conducted their offensive against Serb-held areas in Croatia was indiscriminate, inconsistent with their obligation to protect civilians and unlawful. My opinion is that they intended to displace the civilian population by force. I’d have preferred that they be held criminally responsible for it.
But I don’t envy the judges who sit at ICTY on trials and appeals, or the prosecutors that try them. The facts of these cases are horrendous. The evidence is often less than fulsome. Procedures and standards (the main issue in this case) are not always as well-defined. There will never be justice for most of the victims, who are heard only faintly through the often muted voices of survivors. Bad guys certainly get off. But to my knowledge ICTY has a good record of avoiding false convictions. That is very much to its credit.
I understand Serbs are offended that the Croatian generals whom Belgrade holds responsible for ethnic cleansing got off. The unseemly celebrations in Zagreb irritated an old wound. But it would be unwise to promise that everyone who committed crimes would be convicted. Nor is it reasonable to expect that ICTY will go easy on Serbs to compensate for the Croatian acquittals. Justice is an individual, not an ethnic, issue.
If someone has evidence that ICTY is systematically biased against Serbs, I’ll be glad to have a look at it. If not, it is time to put the ethnic feelings to one side and accept the fact that some of those who committed heinous crimes will be convicted and others not. Justice does not always mean convictions.
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30 thoughts on “Justice does not always mean convictions”
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You are not worth responding to.
Exceprt:
68% of indictees have been Serbs (or Montenegrins),[30] to the extent that a sizeable portion of the Bosnian Serb and Croatian Serbian political and military leaderships have been indicted. Many have seen this as reflecting bias,[33] while the Tribunal’s defenders have seen this as indicative of the actual proportion of crimes committed. However, Marko Attila Hoare observed how, apart from Milošević, only Momčilo Perišić (Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army) has been indicted from the Serbian military or political top when it comes to wars in Croatia and Bosnia.[30]
According to Attila Hoare, a former employee at the ICTY, an investigative team worked on indictments of senior members of the ‘joint criminal enterprise’, including not only Milosevic but also Veljko Kadijevic, Blagoje Adzic, Borisav Jovic, Branko Kostic, Momir Bulatovic and others. However, upon Carla del Ponte’s intervention, these drafts were rejected, and the indictment limited to Milosevic alone, as a result of which most of these individuals were never indicted.[34][35]
End excerpt.
Milosevic died, we all know that.
Next:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_indicted_in_the_International_Criminal_Tribunal_for_the_former_Yugoslavia#References
The list contains 161 names. 94 of them are Serbs, 29 are Croats, 9 are Albanians, 9 are Bosniaks, 2 are Macedonians and 2 are Montenegrins. The others are of unknown ethnicity or their charges have been withdrawn.
This is from my memory, from my local newspaper.
Years of sentences by nationality:
Serbs 931
Croats 171
Others less then 30 per nationality, ergo not important.
I personally like that we are again, after 12 years of democracy here, stil the local bad guy, it brings loving memories, we don’t even care anymore. We don’t even give a fuck about our generals anymore, unlike Croats (congrats to them on that)
Ergo, go f y.
I could proceed to destroy the jugment based on it’s ridiculous notion that the whole 1200 pages of the first chamber sentencing relied on the “200 meter range of error”, but I should read the second sentencing first,(the first one is a hefty read, I will have to rely on news there). No time right now, maybe in a day or two.
Thank you for your attention.
It doesn’t take a conspiracy theory to account for a higher number of Serbs being charged by the ICTY – Serbs were responsible for 80% of civilian deaths (Confronting the Yugoslav Controversies) in the Yugoslav wars. After all, as the country broke up, it was the Serbs who ended up with the professional officer corps of the Yugoslav Army, its heavy equipment, and its arms factories – they simply had a greater capacity for destruction.
The Prosecution may have over-charged Gotovina and Markac with no more evidence available than the pattern of impacts from artillery shells to present as evidence of indiscriminate shelling in the 4 towns during. But for the civilian judges in the first trial to arbitrarily establish a definition of a legal margin of error, under all conditions of wind speed and temperature, for a lawful artillery attack was beyond ridiculous. In any case, observers immediately after the attack described the results as “unexpectedly minor” (the SG’s Special Envoy – the defense made a point of this http://www.gotovinatrialwatch.com/?tag=knin).
In any event, Vuk Jeremic is taking advantage of his position as President of the UN General Assembly to call for a discussion of the ICTY next April. The Serb papers seem to have great hopes for this, since as Jeremic pointed out in statements after his election to the post, the PGA has the power to determine who is allowed to speak and in what order. After the expected release of Haradinaj on Nov. 29, things can be expected to get only more bitter. (Michael Attila Hoare at Greater Surbiton – in the blogroll to the right) – was in the Balkans during much of the time and can be expected to follow the action.)
Contrary to what seems to be the general expectation, last Friday’s ruling may actually result in more reconciliation in the region than has seemed possible lately (ever since Nikolic’s election and some rather wild statements). The Croatian President is saying that the Generals had been bearing the burden of others – that crimes were committed, and that it Croatia’s responsibility to find and punish those responsible for them. (Gotovina was found guilty of failing to do this after Operation Storm, although he had been reassigned to a different area of operations. But he had served 7 years awaiting the trial, and so was released.) And Gotovina just yesterday called on the Serbs who fled to return, saying “This is as much your homeland as mine.” Now that their war of independence is no longer being treated as a Joint Criminal Enterprise, the Croats seem to be more ready to take responsibility for how it was waged. Another move in the right direction would be to agree to a joint withdrawal of mutual accusations of genocide filed with the international courts – after Friday’s ruling, the Serbs now fear that their country will be bankrupted to pay reparations for the destruction of Croatian towns and civilian deaths. If there was ever a situation that called for an expression of goodwill, this would seem to be it.
Bad proofreading: ” … evidence of indiscriminate shelling in the 4 towns during. ” should obviously have ended “during Operation Storm.” Sorry.
First, Nikolic´s statements were mostly pinned to him, the only idiotic he made was when he repeated one of those pinned statements (Srebrenica-crime;not genocide. whatever, nobody in Serbia cares how it’s called).
Second, you are completely misreading the political situation here. It has been peaceful and quiet for over 13 years here. Few are truly mad at Croats, except, understandably I can imagine, refugees and people whose family was killed in the war.
Third, if you believe a Croat on his word that he won’t butcher, lol, the only reason Serbs rose up in 91 was because they had a very good memory of 1941-5; about god knows how many refugees (our number 220.000 theirs is well, I don´t know) are right now being barred from selling their *property* if it was rebuilt by the Croatian government, it is taken away from them. I am sure many Serbs will take Gotovina’s word and return, he seems to have a fetish for Storms, this last one he called the Hague Storm.
I am happy to read in the sentencing how he was present at the Brijuni meeting, and then forged a plan to indiscriminately shell cities to save xxx.xxx serbs from the real butcher, Franjo. Gotovina is probably their savior!
I too would forge a plan to indiscriminately shell and fire rockets at cities in order to force a mass exodus to save them from Franjo. A rehearsed exodus, mind you, Serbs there have looong memories. Was it indiscriminate? I can’t remember. Surgical shelling suffices, obviously. It’s a town, it’s a big target…
Which brings us to one of the final points. Gotovina is their savior! All the rest, the JNA consisting of professional soldiers and conscript 18 years olds will of course perform more war crimes then Croatian and Bosnian war dogs, whoops, freedom fighters. I understand, such highly regular command structure is a very good place for the formation of joint criminal enterprises, not to mention the Bosnian Serb (synonym – bosnian butchers) TO (territorial defense), those guys are war dogs as well. Remember Srebrenica? Yes, 8000 dead, Conspiracy to commit genocide (joint criminal enterprise) and carrying out of genocide. Same with Krajina Serbs. I have no idea why they would be considered for a JCE, but I am sure they jointly planned a war crime or two.
I am glad to know that, if shit hits the fan, I will be able to finally solve a century of unrest in the Balkans. I will be able to audio and visually record myself listening to my president(supreme commander) demand that I “inflict such loses to them that they never return” and such yada yada, hell I’ll televise it live on the TV, it is obviously a good thing to do, I’ll be able to finally separate those warring tribes as I see fit and able.
Wait, Krajisnik tried that as well… he got convicted. I don’t get it, one could get away one it, one could not, what is the difference between them? One is a politician, the other one a General, one a Croat, the other one a Serb. Ah yes, politicians get convicted, not generals, they just carry out orders. I will be fine. I am happy to know that, as long as I film the president saying it, it will all be fine. The idiot is free to die ASAP then. Stupid Milosevic and Krajisnik.
I know about the numbers. Yes, 80.000 Bosniacs. About 73 per day. About 150 every other day, it was trench warfare with a lot of truces. I just noticed the number, this paragraph has no other point then to note the figure. Yeah, Croats and Serbs cleared a Bosnian village every other day during the war. Minus Srebrenica, that was obviously the grand finale from all that practice. That number sounds very legitimate to me now. But I have zero proof that the number is correct or not, so I digress. They (civilians) died like the plague struck them, for some reason. I guess Croats learned the indiscriminate shelling idea from Serbs. Only way to rack up the number, without causing Serb casualties. But as long as they didn’t miss by more then 200 meters, it was OK, right? Or it isn’t? I’ll need to read the sentencing.
My point that took me this long to make is that your entire premise is wrong. It’s not quid pro quo. You don’t get a fixed number of days for each civilian killed. Civilians do not matter, war crimes do.
You rack up 900 years when you have a joint criminal enterprise, read, conspiracy to commit genocide (expanded meaning, not just Srebrenica).
Your entire premise is wrong. Serbs could have had tactical nukes, as long as those nukes were fired from artillery and landed within 200 meters, I am sure it would be fine. Or it wouldn’t, I’ll need to read the verdict, I am confused.
I am glad about the Croats. Imagine how I would feel if I was told: “Yes, a few people committed war crimes, they might, or might not be prosecuted, a few years total in front of our just and impartial courts will do, like the last case, can’t even remember their name”. For a fledgling nation with no real history to speak of, nothing to be proud of, anyway(nothing Serbs ever did even begins to approach their history), their identity basically defined by who they are not (as you can see from all the euphoria there) and a single, last war they were a part of… It has to do wonders for their psyche. The same kind of pride Nikolic (yes, “the warmonger”)is slowly returning to us.
Doesn’t matter how many people you expel to become refugees, no mention of that as any kind of crime. Hell, they picked themselves up, didn’t they?
In your typical arrogance, you completely miss the point of why Serbs are angry.
But then, I don’t know why we are angry as well, it didn’t happen… they went to Belgrade for a picnic…
To sum up in one sentence:
Recorded receiving orders to exterminate and expel a population according to their nationality -> exonerated as not part of a joint criminal enterprise.
This would be a good meme. Heh, they are already starting.
http://memegenerator.net/Ante-Gotovina-Heroj
He is right. u mad, bro?
I am not, I am used to it, it really doesn’t matter, it’s already forgotten.
One more thing. That peace and reconciliation idealogy you dung about. Nobody gives a nickel about Croatians here. Except those that who got expelled and their family killed. That peace and reconciliation mantra will really work on them. Really really will.
I am sure that your ignorance of basic human psychology is, of course, completely disregarded by your “peace and reconciliation” ideology, like all other religions, it is correct by it’s mere existence. I am not even going to begin to explain how far away from reality you are.
This is one of the last nails of the EU diatribe in Serbia (Kosovo will be the last, though Hague can always surprise us again). Was 55% against EU before, now it’s probably 65.
Keep it going.
Lol, I almost forgot. Why would Croatia retreat from the genocide court case now, you ignorant, sad person. You don’t even do basic reality checks on what exits your mouth. Serbia’s position is now severely weakened there, no JCE by Croats. They can’t retreat now.
Looking forward to 75% against EU once it happens.
The worst thing is that I hardly care about all this. You are arguing with a social liberal pirate(a political party). Those morons managed to unite even the worst europhiles against the Gotovina verdict and pull them into the nationalistic diatribe (the Liberal Democratic Party, basically serb hating EUphiles…). Idiots.
Off to read the verdict, as soon as I have time. Have fun killing the last vestiges of europhilia in Serbia.
Congrats to Croats, truly happy for them. The refugees here truly don’t matter. We can’t really tell them apart on the street, can we? They are now living in a place where they will never, ever, be able to be touched by them again, not 20, not 70 years ago. We are way to big for them. That’s all that matters.
Peace, Amer. Learn about other cultures.
“Peace, Amer. Learn about other cultures.”
And peace be unto you. As for for learning about other cultures, I’m working on it.
Nosfa Fasfa – and you mistook Mr Daniel Serwer with whom?
let’s see:
Serbs 931
Croats 171
There are 5:1 casualties on the other side. Taking into an account what of those casualties are civilians among Bosniak side and what are and what are military forces among Serb’s and Croat’s forces would make things even worse. First go and find how many civilians died on each side (do not mix military and civilians like it is a custom among imbecilic politicians) and then come back and see why there are more convicted on the Serb’s side than on the other sides.
I am sorry, the reply to you is part of the comment above, I merged them into one.
Basically, I am sorry, but you are ignorant. You do not get a fixed number of days per civilian killed, you rack up those years when you are convicted for joint criminal enterprises (genocides).
Your numbers are correct. Your conclusion is not. Sorry.
931 years / 94 = 9.904
171 years / 29 = 5.89
rest = probably even worse
JCE’s probably account for the difference. Or will you claim that Hague is biased?
By the way, there were not 5 times more causalities. Only 8000 Serbs died in the war. 92 thousand croats and Bosniacs. Something like 80 thousand and 16000. We are butchers, I confess… Everything against us is allowed. Will not complain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_in_Yugoslavia
Err, only 64 000 Bosniacs… stil about 10 times more. Nine…
You know, though I hate Tadic, I am glad he apologized to Both Croats and Bosniacs. Shows our character probably better then we ever could (we seem to be bad at propaganda).
I seem to be an idiot.
20 000 Croats
31 000 Serbs
64 000 Bosnian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_in_Yugoslavia
This really shatters my illusion of Serbian-Yugoslav military invulnerability, the only thing I had going to excuse my people for all injustices and crimes committed against them in the name of the west (at least we butchered them, or so I thought).
My eyes are watering at the suffering of the Serbian people in these wars. I could almost cry…
Amazing military superiority causing 5 to 1 causalities even with Nato… in truth, JNA was raided by Croats and Bosniacs as much as by Serbs… Damn it… I thought we got away only with half a million refugees (Kosovo as well).
Life.
Apologies to all the people whose loved ones were killed, raped, etc, allegedly, in my name.
“My eyes are watering at the suffering of the Serbian people in these wars. I could almost cry…” well I certainly hope so, my relatives and I are one of them.
“Apologies to all the people whose loved ones were killed, raped, etc, allegedly, in my name.” if you mean it I could consider accepting it and teach you thing or two about all the youth lost in the wars that had to go to wars they didn’t wanted to go into (me included) to watch youth today having no education/knowledge brought by intellectual elite to the level of soccer hooligans and brainwashed by 20 years of failed ideology and nationalistic propaganda good for nothing but to drink themselves to death as their highest achievement. it is horror what intellectual elites on balkan had done to many of you. it won’t be easy to bring you back to normal and asking of someone to be saint (e.g. international community) just so you could yourself understand the crime that has been done to others and then to yourselves by yourselves alone in the first place is not the way to go. if you want to be accepted as grown up you must understand and accept your own mistakes. no one will do that for you.
Thanks, but no thank you.
It was this Serwer guy that provoked me, otherwise I am a euro-amero-rusophiliac most of the time.
Anyway I am just caricaturing most of my comments.
Felt sad, of course, when I saw that over 110 thousand people actually died, thought it was just under 100 000.
As I said, nobody cares about the wars, only people with ideologies which give them right call their people savages to be educated by the west. 🙂
But I didn’t find it important enough to get into a discussion about it, europhilia/westernophilia is fine if it’s the only thing that keeps you going.
I was just commenting in a winded, sarcastic way on the mantra you mentioned, and maybe somebody else, that “serbs raided all the tech and poor other peoples were defensles”.
Ofcourse, I simpatise with them as well, another caricature.
I am slightly more realistic about the western interest and interference.
Don’t worry, I am a highly educated pirate, not a sneaker stealer.
You should note that I am (almost) the only person here not denying any crimes or war criminals, unlike a pathetic excuse at the defense of Hague here (that it didn’t conclude that there was no JCE).
I would not be able to engage in commenting about Gotovina otherwise.
Read my comments again, and note the sarcasms.
“Mr Serwer Guy” is the most decent person you’re going to find among the diplomats on the hill. You might be wise to listen what he has to say.
Amer, war of independence and war crimes are two different things. If you commit war crimes in your war for independence they’re still war crimes. If Serb’s side committed war crimes that does not mean that other side in conflict has a license to to the same. Serbs who still in large numbers do not think or do not feel that Srebrenica happened or who do not remember that in 91′ Serb in Croatia also committed crimes along with their neighbors do not deserve second though on this. Jeremic who is using this for his own agenda is insane person. As it was shown on his plot to get the position in UN by securing support from Russia in their own scheming he is always ready to advance his agenda even if that means hurting interest of Serbia which is joining EU. Who deserves second though on this is Western Sense of Justice which says this is not it. This is something we see in Balkan scheming and its tribal mentality. Readiness to sell principle for interest. Not my cup of tea and I am not joining in. One crime can not and must not justify the other is the foundation of western morality. Those who come from less evolved societies tend to forego this all to soon.
If direction is to be sought on this matter is about Serbs not accepting the plan Z4 which implies that up to that point Croatian leadership had no intention of expatriating Serb population from Croatia. However, as transcripts reveal, Croatia’s leadership betrayed American support in this by with their plan on expatriating Serb population from Croatia and now playing the card that convicting Generals will convict the US as well. That cannot be the case because there is written material from that time that clearly shows the US being against such actions. This is what I would like to call stoop to the level of primitive Balkan societies and their nonexistent sense of justice which can be described in famous example of researcher who asked two tribes in conflict to describe what is good and what is evil and they said: good is when we go conquer other tribe, kill them, burn their villages, plunder their food and rape their women and evil is when they do that to us.
Mr Serwer, here is your response.
At first, I started to destroy the majority judgment, but then realized that you, mr Serwer, didn’t even care to read the dissenting opinions.
It is interesting how much judge Carmel Agius is appalled by the sentence (especially the shot police car that I mention bellow in my rant) saying things like “Having neatly disposed of the Impact Analysis” in his dissenting opinion. Seems more appalled then Serbs are, mentioning the 900 shells on Knin that I heard on Croatian tv.
Practically the same reasoning I used, plus with added explanation of the scale of legal errors by the majority opinion, and clear explanations of how HV targeted *non-military targets* at least 450 meters from the nearest military target, which puts it strongly into unlawful shelling, no matter what, if any, 200 meter standard or any other standard is used. (some random shells went 800 meters from up to 18 kilometers away. that’s no modern artillery, that’s WW2 carpet bombing)
The legal precedent (de novo judgment without explicitly noting the legal or factual error and subsequently setting a new, proper legal standard or explaining the facts properly as required if this was a factual error) set by the appeals court here is an even greater travesty of the legal process then the arbitrary 200 meter shelling radius was (it should have been 100m radius, 200m diametar for closer targets, based on distances of no more then 8-12km or similar numbers).
You have obviously not bothered to read the dissenting opinions that attack the very methodology used by the majority in this case, calling it not applicable.
Judge Fausto Pokar makes a stunning argument that utterly destroys the appellate judgment, namely that the majority concluded that the Primary Chamber concluded that civilians fled the tows because of unlawfulness of the artillery bombardment, when in effect, the Primary Chamber concluded that the primary motivator was fear.
Enough said. I am saddened that you did not bother to read the dissenting opinions.
If there is any way to put this appellate courts decision to legal review, my judgment is that it will fall like a house of cards. It’s probably final.
One personal note: Robinson, that found Gotovina not guilty of a verbal delict (Brioni), will find Vojislav Seselj guilty of exatcly that. End note.
Enough of this. No further comments from me. My original rant bellow.
CCC.
1)Page 23: “The fact that a relatively large number of shells fell more than 200 meters from fixed
artillery targets could be consistent with a much broader range of error.”
So, what basis does the Appeal chamber have to claim this? I think, ergo, it’s true? Same thought process as the 200 meter standard, except that a “higher margin or error”, ie the so called 400+ meters (800 meters diametar) from the target becomes the whole fucking town.
So it’s not fine when the experts (the guy that fired the goddamn shells) say that the spread is about 75 meters at 18 kilometers, but when the Trial chamber gives a very, very broad 200 meters to give the guys a slack even if they misfired so strongly at 8 km distance, “it’s deficient thinking, applying a single measure of error”. I’d say they applied a very, very generous measure of error, one that even his own artillery commander would not apply to, gasp, himself.
When Trial chamber applies a generous error range, gasp, deficient, when the Appeals chambers says “could be”, it has to be!
The Trial Chamber considered half of the town a legitimate target(400m diameter). The Appeals chamber considers the whole town, or the underlying villages as well (“much boarder range of error”).
And now we go on to the “remaining analysis”.
Brioni… You know, we have a person in custody of Hague for 10 years now, for no more then a *verbal delict*, and these guys “think” that when somebody says that he can destroy a whole town, it’s not indicative of intent, that he needs to explicitly say that he will butcher civilians? With his supreme commander saying something amounting to a genocide. Double standards, Serwer?
And now the JCE.
And the travesty exposes itself: page 31.
“On this last point,
the Appeals Chamber observes that, although the contribution need not be necessary or substantial,
it should at least be a significant contribution to the crimes for which the accused is to be found
responsible.”
What the fuck does this mean? No further comment.
And again the diatribe: we consider artillery shelling “not unlawful” (lawful), therefore no *forced* deportation of civilians, shelling the whole town because of a single or no military target is ‘not unlawful’ (sic).
* not unlawful or *disproportionate* (sic); as the judge Agnius neatly notices in his disproportionality argument.
One last note.
Brioni was 31 July, indiscriminate shelling started on 2 August.
End note.
Again, you mistook Mr Serwer with whom exactly?
First, Serbs and their intellectuals must answer the question why the plan Z4 is denied by the leadership of Serbs in Croatia (so called Krajina), why Karadzic is the most responsible person that Croatia’s Serbs did not accepted peace but went with maximal goal which was division of Croatia. And why all those people, responsible for demise of Serbian people in 20/21 century are being held as heroes and not for what they are and what they’ve done.
And you at the end, ought to be kind to behave yourself here and with a man with like Mr Serwer is. This is not one of your corrupt politicians that rein on the Balkans.
Do you have nothing else to respond to me except to say that I am not polite?
Thank you for the lesson about Mr Server.
I am glad that these comments I am making are not being moderated heavily by mr Serwer, it shows that he is at least, willing to listen.
Justice does not always mean convictions in this case is one of the better Orwellian sentences I have seen in a while.
Being that Mr Serwer has read the sentence, as well as I, I am sure that Mr Serwer has formed his opinion on the sentence, which does not seem too critical.
I have no idea what Mr Serwer thinks about the dissenting opinions, so I have to ask him. My honest interpretation is that he did not bother to read them. That kind of written word by the dissenting judges is not considered prudent or polite in official court documents.
I just noticed he said he was a layman, so even if he completely disregards the dissenting opinions, I have no qualms with him. I presumed he was a lawyer.
And in case you did not notice, I definitely improved my behavious as the comments progressed.
I saw his bio 4-5 days ago after visiting Vuk Jeremic´s twitter account and went balistic when I saw he was something in the UN administration in Bosnia.
I am fully aware that Mr Serwer seems to have some kind of connection to Mr Vuk, maybe even friendship, or aquaitance.
That is not important.
Being a layman, I expect nothing of Mr Serwer currently. I didn´t have to destroy the sentence, the dissenting judges did that for me.
If Mr Serwer wishes to respond, I am sure that he will and will be glad to hear his thoughts, especially if he does not agree with me.
Responding to the systematic bias is a big research subject, and frankly, I too have no idea how the tribunal actually works.
I only know that they did a piss poor job preserving the lives of witnesses in the Haradinaj case’s and this Gotovina thing.
Well see what will happen in the UN. One thing is sure, Mr Vuk, successfull or not, is going to be an important politician in Serbia in the years to come, he has what it takes for that (whatever that äctually is, will not go into that).
Small correction.
Being that Mr Serwer has read the sentencing, as well as I, I am sure that Mr Serwer has formed his opinion on the sentencing, which does not seem too critical.
I’m not sure how anyone could have any doubt whatsoever about my views on this case, as I wrote: “Personally, I don’t have much doubt that the way in which the generals conducted their offensive against Serb-held areas in Croatia was indiscriminate, inconsistent with their obligation to protect civilians and unlawful. My opinion is that they intended to displace the civilian population by force. I’d have preferred that they be held criminally responsible for it.”
I am sorry, I was referring to the Appellate chamber majority’s chosen legal process (or the lack of one) to arrive at the decision.
Being that we are laymans, it does not really matter (though both dissenting jugdes are flaming over it, Pocar explicitely mentioning: “In my view, the Majority’s approach is wholly erroneous and in violation of our standard of
review on appeal for various reasons.” ).
Thank you.
There was also some diatribe made by somebody from Serbia about Serbian institutions in the North of Kosovo and how they should be abolished on this blog, that helped me go ballistic about him.
https://www.peacefare.net/?p=12062
Somewhere in the middle here.
Somehow, Serbian schools, medical institutions, police and clerks (the so called “parallel institutions”) present a huge problem to the ¨peace and reconciliation¨ in Kosovo.
I can understand why. It´s not easy to assimilate a people with it´s own education system, or cleanse when they command their police forces themselves.
When I have more time(way to busy right now to even read), I´ll read that diatribe completely as well, to better understand it, unlike what I did with my first comment here, so I´ll probably destroy it as well as this appellate court decision if there is anything to destroy.
This is fun.
Thank you.
Sorry, another correction, the dissenting judges destroyed the sentence, not attacking the facts in it (the decision did not bother with facts, or the legal process), but attacking the legal technicalities, similar to how the majority tried to bring down the whole Primary Chamber sentence on a technicality, thereby completely disregarding the standard for Appellate review by it´s own institution, the Hague Tribunal.
One problem with the ICTY has been that it operates under a combination of two systems of jurisprudence – the English common law, adversarial system and the Continental, inquisitorial system. This has resulted in all-round dissatisfaction. As in the common-law countries, fact-finding is done by the two sides, the prosecution and the defense. The judges are not expected to do independent fact-finding or research and thus do not write standards for such things as artillery shelling – they can only accept or reject the facts presented by the two sides as being well-founded or insufficient. The evidence presented by the defense was enough to cast doubt on the assertions of the prosecutor as to the reliability of their claims. (For example, air temperature and wind speed can affect the accuracy of projectiles in flight. This was not accounted for in the 200-m standard, making it inherently unsatisfactory.) The defendants were not required to prove their innocence by proving that every shell had been fired responsibly, it was the prosecutor’s job to prove their guilt, which the judges said he had not done. It isn’t the judges’ role to establish the criteria if the prosecutors were unable to justify their claims.
As for the closeness of the dates of the Brioni conference and the attack, post hoc, non ergo propter hoc.
What exactly are you trying to say?
That the Appeals chamber was not obligated to set a new legal standard for lawful vs unlawful shelling when it killed the primary chambers one? Not the prosecutors legal standard, the primary chambers legal standard. Again, please read the dissenting opinions, they mention some kind of “Hague tribunal practice”.
As for the Brioni, you obviously are not informed what the meeting was about, why it was scheduled and what was discussed (the military operation itself), if you are able to make such a claim.
Here’s an article that is more serious than current hysteria in media:
http://tacno.net/Novost.aspx?id=21271&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
– if opened in chrome or safari it offers and option to be automatically translated to english, and translation is not that bad.
It’s an interview with Croatian lawyer Anto Nobilo an expert in international criminal law.
There was a TV program on our national television that mentioned an interesting fact about the whole Bosnian Croat deal.
Out of those 29 or so Croatians mentioned above that were sentenced, 25 of them were Bosnian Croats (a population 10 times smaller (500.000 vs 4-5 milion) then the Croatian population).
The other four were Gotovina, Markac, some other guy, and a journalist (that was in that television program).
The journalist got 3 months in Hague for revealing one of the “secret wintesses”, namely Stipe Mesic (former prime minister of Croatia).
Long story short, that journalist is the only guy that served a sentence in Hague as far as Croats from Croatia are concerned.
It puts the whole Croatian Euphoria into perspective currently…
We’ll see how shocked they really will be, it would not be the first time the west has exonerated fascist states (and I am not talking Germany or Italy here).
The Generals were not guilty of anything, other than destroying the joint criminal enterprise headed by Slobodan Milosevic, the anti-democratic axis of greater Serbian Chetnik fascism and Yugoslav Communism.
The baseless charges against Croatian Generals were and remain absurd.
So absurd that the Prosecution’s “smoking gun” in its opening evidence was a doctored propaganda film from Milosevic’s military intelligence (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cuefdyuyFA) – donated by a Yugoslav Army intelligence officer.
There simply was no ethnic cleansing, as Milosevic’s transcripts from the 43rd Meeting of the Supreme Defense Council of Yugoslavia (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsyjCBA_qIg) demonstrate without a shadow of a doubt.
Begin quote: “I beg of you, 6,000 Croats defended Vukovar for half a year; the entire 1st Army attacked, the air force, a miracle, all the force that the JNA had, and they [Serbs] didn’t defend Knin, which can only be approached from three directions; they couldn’t defend it even 12 hours?
They did not defend it, because according to all reports that we have received from the police, citizens and the rest, as soon as the artillery preparations ended at seven in the evening, they ordered – a fleeing! According to this, there was no resistance nor even an armed encounter with Croatian forces. (…) – There came the order that
all leave Krajina the same day, even without a single engagement with the Croatian Army on most of the front. If we that same day made the idiotic decision to help them, who would have made it to Knin by the evening to help them? And, no one would be able to make it there from their [military] columns that congested all roads in their fleeing together with the population. (…) The question is, indeed, who made
the decision that the Krajina leadership leaves the Krajina? That decision, when they had all of the means to defend, caused an exodus. Now that has to be the reason that Yugoslavia rushes there to defend that territory, from which they fled like rabbits?!” End quote
The order referred to was from ethnically purified of 99.5% of non-Serb “Krajina” President Milan Martic, issued August 4, 1995 at 16:45PM, supported by Yugoslav Army General Mile Mrksic. The order was issued on radio, TV and facsimile / via fliers by the Vrhovni savjet odbrane RSK (The Supreme Council of Defense of Republic of Serb Krajina).
The decision was signed by Milan Martic, and later verified in Glavni stab SVK (Headquarters of Republic of Serb Krajina Army) at 17:20 that same day.
The fact remains that the”Krajina” Serbs were long preparing a massive, organized withdrawal in case of a Croatian attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_hJcjIYSBg;), for, as “Krajina” Secretary and Veritas NGO founder Savo Strbac told the New York Times in January 1995, Serbs didn’t want to live in “any Croatia,” in “any form.” Which is why all of the towns the JNA “liberated” in 1991 never saw a single reconstruction project the duration of the war, even after it was finished after Dayton for when Vukovar was peacefully reintegrated, it looked the same it did in Nov. 1991 when it was occupied.
The prosecution claim that Croatian artillery – 94.5% accurate according to the prosecution’s own evidence – was in fact “excessive and indiscriminate” was and remains equally as absurd, especially considering that there was not one single recorded civilian casualty (death or wounded) by rocket, mortar or artillery fire, and that the “excessive and indiscriminate” shelling killed a single (1) armed Serb paramilitary meters in front of the VRSK Headquarters in Knin.
Croatian Army and Croatian Defense Forces fire missions were so precise that Mile Mrksic, the General whose forces Gotovina’s forces mopped the floor with, asked Gotovina during the trial how he and his forces had such precise fire missions.
So precise that Western artillery and military law experts (https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/DOCLIBS/MILITARYLAWREVIEW.NSF/20a66345129fe3d885256e5b00571830/b7396120928e9d5e85257a700042abb5/$FILE/By%20Major%20General%20%28RET.%29%20Walter%20B.%20Huffman.pdf))felt compelled to dissent the original ruling, as it banalized warfare itself and the use of concentrated projectile fires against military targets, and more or less would create a precedent where any projectile fire less than 94.5% accurate (as UK and US mortar and artillery fire is in Afghanistan today, and as it was in Iraq) would be considered a “war crime” and all participating operational planners would be “joint criminal enterprise participants” in past, ongoing and future conflicts worldwide, despite taking every measure, as Gotovina and Markac did, to prevent and prosecute any and all war crimes.
That is the key.
In addition to endless mandatory classes on the Laws of Land Warfare and Geneva Conventions for all forces before Operation Storm was launched, there were 1,000 courts martial and civilian trials – with 741 convictions for crimes by civilians and troops, unfortunately for the victims, including murder, which there were unfortunately 44 of, with 64% of them solved, making Croatia’s investigations during wartime as accurate as US law enforcement during peacetime according to FBI figures regarding murder cases solved in the nation – during the operation and in the weeks immediately after, in addition to over 2,380 people being convicted for crimes and war crimes (including the 741 convictions during / immediately after Storm).
To even suggest, let alone charge as the Prosecution did, that Generals Gotovina and Markac did not do “enough” to “prevent or prosecute” crimes and or war crimes against Serbs is an insult to elementary logic and reason.
The only real “smoking gun” that the Prosecution had was the the Briuni Transcripts, but not the Briuni Transcripts in their entirety, the Stalinistic misquote of them as the Prosecution and Trial Chamber were more than willing to ignore the ENTIRE transcript in terms of its operational planning to deblock soon to be exterminated Bihac by the VRSK and VRS forces, and deliver Martic and Mrksic’s well armed forces a defeat and end the 5 years of indiscriminate and excessive shelling of Croatian towns and cities.
The prosecution instead focused the words “We must deliver such blows that the Serbs practically disappear…”, ignoring the entire context along with the Trial Chamber:
“Because even our friends worry that Yugoslavia will enter the war entirely, and with Yugoslavia, Russia, and therefore total war. Therefore, the east [Sector East] we will leave entirely alone, but we will have to solve the south and north. Solve, but by what means? We must deliver such blows that the Serbs practically disappear, meaning that which we do not take must capitulate in a few days. Therefore, the forecasted plan will have to be reconsidered and modified… Therefore, our main task is not Bihac but delivering via multiple directions those blows that Serbian forces cannot recover, but that they must capitulate.”
Again, the conclusion of the paragraph quoted by the Prosecution / conclusion of the misquoted sentence to any honest observer is Tudman stating that the Croatian military’s main task was to deliver multiple blows from multiple directions to ensure that SERBIAN FORCES cannot recover, only C-A-P-I-T-U-L-A-T-E.
The question is not if Gotovina and Markac were or are guilty – they were and will always remain innocent and professional military men, the question is how and why they spent that much time in prison as innocent men, dragged through the mud by international media houses of usually good repute, and of course by the “free and transparent” neo-Yugoslav media in Croatia, and how their case was used by certain nations within the EU – whose efforts to placate Serbia during its aggression went so far as to demand Croats and Bosniaks give more to Milosevic and Karadzic than they actually held – to block Croatia’s entry as long as possible.
This was all possible due to the case against Croatia being built on the “evidence” provided to the ICTY since 1993, when it began working with then Secretary of the “Krajina,” 1993-present ICTY “investigator,” seven (7) joint criminal enterprise participant (Milosevic, Hadzic, Martic, Babic, Mrksic, Simatovic and Stanisic), “Veritas” NGO founder (along with Slobodan Milosevic himself) Savo Strbac.
This means that the entire Gotovina and Markac case was one giant conflict of interest by the ICTY and the Prosecution due to Strbac’s own command responsibility.
However, even Strbac admitted on Banja Luka TV on August 7, 1995 on why the “Krajina” leadership ORDERED the Serbs to WITHDRAW, meaning there was no ethnic cleansing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSRXAYeSo3M.
It must be noted that while indicting Generals Markac, Gotovina and Cermak, as well as Croatia’s 1st President and Defense Minister posthumously, the ICTY had not to date indicted a single Operational Zone Commander of the Yugoslav People’s Army or Army of the Serbian Republic of “Krajina” for their indiscriminate and excessive shelling of Croatian towns, cities and hamlets in 1991 (through Operation Storm in 1995), nor a single author of the Rampart (RAM) Plan by the Yugoslav People’s Army General Staff, which in very precise language outlined the targeting of civilians as a means to “demoralize the enemies” of Yugoslav Socialism, which was not just disseminated by every JNA staff officer down through every JNA / TO / VRSK fireteam leader, but carried out with extreme zeal and prejudice by all Serb forces the duration of the conflict with crimes and war crimes the norm among the JNA / VRSK / VRS, not the abnormal as with the case of Croatian forces.
Regards.
It must be noted that former “Republic of Serbian Krajina” ‘President’ Milan Babic admitted at the ICTY that not a single investigation, let alone trial and conviction, of ANY Serb for ANY crime, let alone war crime against the hundreds of thousands of victims of “Krajina” terrorist and JNA violence (10,000 killed – of them 400 sick and elderly slaughtered during the UN’s “peacekeeping” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAa2nqIjyM4) – 30,000 maimed, 400,000 non-Serbs ethnically cleansed – 99,5% of the pre-war non-Serb population – and barred by the “Krajina” government from ever returning to the so-called “Krajina”) ever took place the entirety of the “Krajina”‘s fascist convicted war criminal existence.
In addition, to date, neither Serbia nor the ICTY tried or even indicted ANY JNA Operational Zone Commander for ANY of the massive aforementioned war crimes 1991-1995 save Mrksic, who was low ranking in 1991 and not a General Staff member of the Yugoslav Supreme Defense Council that still unindicted Rampart Plan authors JNA Gens. Blagoje Adzic and Veljko Kadijevic were.
In fact, it was not until the mid 2000s that anyone was put on trial in Serbia for command responsibility for any war crimes, let alone any senior military personnel involved operational planning and oversight, and or non-prevention or prosecution of systematic war crimes committed by suboridinates in Croatia.
Save Milosevic and Mrksic – tried by the ICTY – everyone tried or on trial in Serbia was a low-ranking nobody in the military and not a single senior officer despite the explicitly war criminal Rampart (RAM) Plan outlined by the JNA General Staff outlining the war criminal conduct by Serb forces in the 1990s, and the plethora of war criminal orders and war criminal hate speech and threats that proved and proves intent.
Meanwhile, Croatia tried Croatian troops and civilians alike the duration of the war, the duration of Operation Storm, and through to today – with Croatian courts convicting a Croatian General (albeit on pretty shoddy evidence debunked by the original UN Report) General Norac.
Any attempts to equate guilt or responsibility is in the war, between Croatia and Serbia, is an insult, especially considering the fact that in Croatia, over 90% of war crimes were committed by Serbs
The fact that the unindicted war criminal Savo Strbac – the seven (7) JCE participant who took part in the illegal arming of Serbs within the then Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia as a Yugoslav Counterintelligence operative, which began before Franjo Tudman even formed HDZ, and who formed the “Veritas” sham NGO that the ICTY worked closely with the duration of the war putting it in an unbelievable conflict of interest that the entire international community and media should have denounced the duration of the investigation and trial and appeals process – defended the organized self-exodus of Serbs on Banja Luka television days after the operation, shows just how little of a case the Prosecution has as their chief “fact” gatherer (along with Tito regime dog Zarko Puhovski, the fraudulant “humanitarian” who’s intellectual opus and published academic books and articles fits on four bullet pointed lines of 12 font text, who was a very active participant in the repression of democracy as a regime collaborator and false witness for the state in the suppression of the Croatian Spring) was on TV just after the operation proving that there was no “ethnic cleansing,” but a pre-planned and pre-rehearsed self-exodus as the criminally insane “Krajina” fascist leadership pursued a policy of total separation, and saw it better that all Serbs withdraw rather than face the “horror” of having Croatians return to their pre-war homes and be neighbors again.
One must ask if the, according to JNA-VJ / VRSK General Milan Mrksic, pinpoint accurate Croatian projectile fire constituted a “excessive and indiscriminate shelling” and a “joint criminal enterprise,” then what was the Vukovar campaign, with 7 million projectiles fired upon the city?
Or the five years of still uninvestigated excessive and indiscrminate shelling of every Croatian hamlet, village, town and city within the VRSK / VRS mortar, artillery and rocket range?
Why hasn’t Serbia, the ICTY or Croatia investigated or indicted anyone for the shell that fell on the Slavonski Brod grade school that killed 13 children in 1991, being that the grade school was a kilometer from any military terrain or personnel – which Serb propaganda, as in Sarajevo, blamed on Croatian forces?
What about the excessive and indiscriminate shelling of Zadar, Gospic, Karlovac, Sunj, Sisak, Ivanovo Selo, etc. that killed thousands and maimed thousands more?
It would be interesting to see those who call / who have called for the initial convictions of Markac and Gotovina to be upheld call for their own nations’ militaries to be held to the same standard in the future, and retroactively, as they suggest for Croatia.
Finally, considering the fact that five percent of Croatian forces during Croatia’s Homeland War, and in Operation Storm itself, was ethnic Serb, claims about wanting to ethnically cleanse Croatia of Serbs is preposterous, as Serbs took part in Operation Storm itself.
The fact is that the RSK, according to both the indictments and rulings against Milan Martic and Milan Babic, was ethnically cleansed of 99.5% of its pre-war Croatian and non-Serb population.
They were officially barred from returning by the “RSK.”
Of the 0.5% of Croats and non-Serbs who stayed in the “RSK” 400 of them were slaughtered / killed by Serb civilians, RSK police and or military between January 1992, when the “impartial” UN “peacekeepers” mission began, and August 1995.
In addition to being bombed daily for five full years from the territory of the “RSK,” after the arrival of the UN “peacekeepers” – which killed hundreds and maimed thousands – Croatia was facing a consolidation of greater Serbia with the joint “RSK” and “Republika Srpska” military offensive against the Bihac pocket which both Mladic and Karadzic were threatening would be a new Srebrenica.
Oluja was and remains a morally and legally just military operation; it ended the war(s) in Croatia and B&H that Slobodan Milosevic, with the overwhelming support of Serbs in and outside of Serbia, started and waged.